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Five years ago, Cora Georgiou and Jia Dee faced off in an esports invitational final. Today they talk about their adventure with the Hearthstone Progression Team.
It’s a big weekend for Hearthstone esports, as it’s time to crown a new world champion. The Hearthstone World Championship will be held in the coming days and is an event that Hearthstone players and enthusiasts look forward to every year. The excitement also extends to the progression team, some of whom discovered their way to Blizzard through the esports scene. Specifically, two members of the team, senior game designer Cora Georgiou and associate game designer at Hearthstone Battlegrounds Jia Dee, made their debuts as Hearthstone launchers.
Fun fact: Cora and Jia didn’t just release Hearthstone, there have been times when they also played the game at a competitive level. In fact, next week will mark the fifth anniversary of an event called World Showdown of Esports 2: The Hearthstone. Showdown, which featured a competitive tournament for women’s Hearthstone. There were several familiar faces from the Twitch and YouTube spaces such as Hafu, Slysssa, Alliestrasza, Edelweiss, and many more, but the grand finale went to Cora and Jia.
It was fun to talk to Cora and Jia to tell the progression team about their adventure. They talked about their careers in esports, their long-term move to Irvine to sign up for Team Blizzard, the upcoming Hearthstone World Championship, what esports has meant to the game as a whole, and even taking a moment to reflect on this five-year tournament. This is where their paths crossed.
Shacknews: Let’s take a moment to talk about your respective beginnings as members of the Hearthstone community, the faces of the Hearthstone esports team. Tell me about your adventure from Hearthstone esports to Hearthstone progression gear.
Jia Dee, Associate Game Designer/Former Hearthstone Caster: In my case, I was a casual Hearthstone player for about a year. The year Hearthstone came out was the year I graduated from… my God… high school. It feels like an age ago, but I just got really into it because I used to play other card games, like Yu-Gi-Oh, and my friend recommended Hearthstone to me. I’d never played any other Blizzard games, so I was like, “What is this Battle.net launcher?” But eventually, I got into Hearthstone… really into it.
After the first year, I started to see if I could catch up to Legend and the like by bending over, watching videos, and asking more experienced players for help. And I did. And then from there, I tried to sign up for local tournaments in the Philippines, the Fireside Gatherings at the time. After a few months, the owner of the board game café where I played said, “I need to have a bigger game. “tournament. ” And he asked me who in our normal network would need to play, and I volunteered and did it. And it was amazing! Although there were perhaps five other people watching the broadcast, which stopped every few minutes because the internet was awful, I had a great time.
At that event, there happened to be somebody working for Mineski in the Philippines who was thinking to organize another Hearthstone tournament at a slightly bigger event. They asked me if I wanted to come on to do that, and I did that. And then at that event, there was somebody who worked for ESL Southeast Asia who was like, “Do you want to cast the Blizzard official event, the Malaysia Major in 2016?” And I said, “Of course I do!” And then I went and did that and things kind of went from there.
Cora Georgiou, Senior Game Designer/Former Hearthstone Host: My adventure is very similar to Jia’s. Hearthstone came out the year I graduated from high school. My brother brought me to the game. He was advised to watch a Kripp YouTube video, one of the first Kripp videos featuring Hearthstone during the beta. So Sage [Georgiou, associate game designer and brother] brought me into the game and Sage and I also played Yu-Gi-Gi a lot. Oh, I developed for about ten years. But we were kids, so we didn’t have money to live on. You know, it’s a pretty expensive card game and we didn’t have any friends playing with us. It was just the two of us. So, Hearthstone was wonderful because there was an opponent that I could just play straight and I enjoyed it, I literally got involved in it very quickly.
I’m very competitive, so I laughed and played a lot when my friends at school were busier than I was, because I was an elementary school student in streaming and I was friends with a lot of elementary students in music schools who were very, very busy. So I had more free time than they did. I played Hearthstone a lot, and then during my junior year, it would have been like 2016, I submitted a video for casting, essentially like Blizzard did, because for esports they were looking for commentators and I was selected for casting. It was the winter playoffs. This was also the first time Sottle and Raven hosted official Blizzard hosts. And then, from there, I moved on. I juggled between observation and school for about a year, then after graduating I followed and participated in many third-party occasions. I’ve done a lot of DreamHack occasions. I studied Hearthstone a lot and lived pretty well there for a few years. And then after about 4 years, I moved into game design and looked to do anything else.
Shacknews: I have more questions about your time in the esports aspect of Hearthstone, but first I must ask you: when you hired for the progression team, it meant having to pack your bags and move to Blizzard’s base in Irvine. I know you’re from the Philippines, Jia, you’re from Chicago. What do you remember about that time when you moved to look for a new life with this game that you knew so well over the years?
Dee: Mine was very recent, a little over a year ago, so I don’t forget it very well. Maybe it was Covid transmission. Obviously, it’s not finished yet, but it was a moment where I thought, “Okay, regardless, things can start to open up again. I can take big risks and make big leaps, maybe big mistakes, but big mistakes. ” jump. ” At the time, Hearthstone Eports was. . . I think a lot of us knew. . . it probably wasn’t having its peak years, so I was thinking a lot about my future. Was I sure I could keep pitching? Indefinitely? Probably not, especially in the Philippines where the local tournament scene wasn’t that big back then. So, thinking about other opportunities, my features were essentially to do something similar to my degree, which is in molecular biology, which I didn’t like, and I probably deserve to go back and go to grad school to get something resembling a pass. . . a paid assignment in this field. . . or follow in the footsteps of many other talented Hearthstone esports people who eventually joined the design team , Cora being one of them, of course.
At the beginning of 2022, they opened up the Associate Game Designer position at Battlegrounds, which is an entry-level position, so essentially for other people like me who didn’t have any formal experience in game design, who hadn’t necessarily gone to game design school. And so, I fired my shot. Many thanks to Celestalon [Chadd Nervig, Hearthstone Stat Lead], who encouraged me to apply for a built position or a position on the battlefields. It was the right time because I only had a casting contract for the rest of the year, so I thought I can finish it and see if I can transition to the design team. And fortunately, I accepted.
So I moved in September of last year and the move possibly wouldn’t have been as painful or scary as you might expect. Although there is a time difference of 15 to 16 hours, because I have a lot of relatives all over the United States. The United States, most commonly on the West Coast, as a long circle of relatives, like first cousins and things like that. But I’ve been there a few times and, yes, everything was fine and everyone helped me, whether it was within the Blizzard network and my circle of family and other private friends in the area. I didn’t feel too intimidating. The costs of everything were scary, but it’s also a little scary how quickly you get used to it.
Georgiou: Also, living out here? Not cheap.
Yes, the distance covered is not as wonderful as Jia’s. My time difference was only two hours and I spent a lot of time in Southern California, evidently with the cast. There were months when I went back and forth every week for TESPA. , because it’s weekly.
I was hired as an associate game designer on the final design team in 2019. Not long after the Las Vegas Masters Tour I thought, “I think I probably won’t have a lot of casting paintings in Hearthstone on the way here. “Grandmasters was just getting started and I saw the writing on the wall. For my part, I was still playing quite a bit with Pokémon, which was great, but at the time they weren’t commenting on all of their regional occasions. It was all about overseas events and the World Cup, so I didn’t see many opportunities there. And then I thought, “Maybe I’ll do classical streaming. Maybe I’ll just take a look to take advantage of my experience in maybe more of a level host job for other games. Or I could choose to stay in Hearthstone because I liked Hearthstone. “
Dean Ayala [former Hearthstone game director] came up to me and said, “Hey, I think you might be a smart candidate for this job. “And then I said, “Okay, of course. ” And I sent out a resume and was interviewed on the spot. This was pre-COVID and I was hired in August. I started in October, so I moved from Chicago to Southern California. I started in October 2019, and then less than six. Months later, COVID hit. And at the time, I was living alone in an apartment in Southern California. I was excited. It was the first time in my life that I lived alone, outdoors from college. I enjoyed it. It didn’t make much sense to pay all that money in rent while I was going to work from home, so, with the help of some friends, I put all my stuff in a garage and went home.
In fact, I had been living at home for 3 years and moved back to Southern California in December of last year. This time, though, it’s a little different because, well, we were all running COVID at home. They hired my brother on the Hearthstone team, so this time we were able to move forward together, which was pretty cool. So, a glimmer of hope at the end, but yes, it was kind of a beginning and then a long prevention and it was very strange. .
Shacknews: Most people who get into Hearthstone esports do it primarily as spellcasters. The fifth anniversary of this event called World Showdown of Esports, and it featured the women of Hearthstone. It is a tournament that ended with Jia vs. Cora. I need to ask you, what was it like for any of you to walk away from casting? workplace and compete in a high-profile tournament like this?
Dee: There were a lot of points that came into play because, first of all, there weren’t a lot of invitational tournaments back then, that I can remember. Invitations tended to be reserved for top streamers or other people who already had a large following. So, an invitation to come with a lot of other people who weren’t necessarily streamers or competitors, to come first with the commentators, to come with emerging competitors, that’s pretty new. And then, in the most sensible of that, [it was] the first time I’d heard about an all-female tournament on a global scale. I think there were some in China before that.
And then another thing that happened: there was a huge balance patch that happened the night before our tournament.
Georgiou: I forgot about that…
Dee: yes, it ruined everybody’s queues. And another sensible thing is that the format is different from the popular competitive Hearthstone format in the past, where we had to bring nine decks instead of four. There is a very confusing situation. Selection and prohibition phase. So the tournament is new for many reasons.
When I got the invite, I was like, “Okay, of course I’m doing this! This is such a good opportunity. The prize pool is amazing. I don’t know if I’m going to do well, because most people here have more competitive experience than me, but going to go in and have a good time.” And a good time it was! The vibes at that tournament were amazing. Everybody got along so well. We had a bunch of media days leading up to it where there was just a lot of good laughs, like moments that were… very distinctly female energy, which I loved, like being in the bathroom together doing last-minute makeup before the next camera shot and things like that. And just all-around, after every match, there were moments of sportsmanship, hugs, and handshakes. And after the tournament itself, we all got together for dinner and the organizers treated us very well. So, I think that experience was, despite it being one of the best, an outlier in my overall competitive experience.
Georgiou: Yes, I wouldn’t say I was a competitor. I competed when I got the chance because I thought it was fun, but I didn’t get the chance to. . . Courage. . . so it took to be a competitor. In fact, a successful competitor in Hearthstone.
I was impressed with this occasion because of the huge budget and the incredible production price. From the audience’s point of view, this tournament seemed better than almost all the other tournaments that were going on at the time. And hence the fact that they chose to spend that money on a women’s only tournament. I still don’t know why they did that, but I’m very grateful that they did it, because I think it gave a lot of legitimacy to the women of Hearthstone that didn’t exist before and, in fact, hadn’t been noticed before, and I think it still hasn’t. It has since been noticed in women-only tournaments.
There were a lot of marginal points that made it interesting, from a meta-point. And in fact, I found the format to be a lot of fun. I’m surprised we didn’t see anyone do this format afterwards, because the selection. The prohibition phase was something of a spectacle in itself. It was pretty cool.
Shacknews: You talked about the balance patch that was released right before the tournament. I had forgotten that. I also know it was a big challenge at the time. And that fits perfectly with the next question: How has your background in the world of esports helped shape who you are as a developer?Did your esports perspective replace the progression team?
Dee: Oh, definitely some influence there. Part of the reason we were hired was our knowledge of the game itself, like mechanics, how to play the best decks, how to find the best decks, and knowledge of how to explain them to a wider audience. They always say that teaching is the best measure of how well you understand the topic. Are you able to explain it to somebody? As casters, we do that on a daily basis. All of the study that goes into making sure you know what you’re talking about when casting directly translates into knowledge of gameplay and what might be a design that is too powerful or too weak.
After joining the team, I learned a lot more about what makes everything fun and what makes everything easy to understand. But the skills I learned as a high-ranking player, knowing what makes a deck competitive or what drives a meta, also helped me a lot in the ultimate balancing process of Battlegrounds.
Georgiou: yes, and I think from another angle, you get a lot of bad moments when you’re a visual figure in esports and you’re informed that you have to settle for complaints and react to complaints, but also not react.
Even though the esports environment in relation to game design is very, very different and complaints and feedback are done in very different ways, it’s still very useful to have those skills and be able to not only get feedback but also know how to give it. constructive feedback and how to, as Jia said, help others who are now in the position you once were in. And yeah, I think developing that thicker skin through esports has given me a really smart starting point for game design.
Shacknews: We’re coincidentally coming up on the Hearthstone World Championship this weekend. With your own esports background fresh in mind, what would you say that esports has meant to the game of Hearthstone as a whole?
Dee: In terms of how Hearthstone’s esports has affected the game as a whole, I think it’s very appealing because obviously none of us were there at the beginning, creating the game. But from what I’ve heard from most of the team. The members that have been around the longest, is that esports was never the initial focus when creating the game. No one had planned for it to be a game that was considered primarily competitive. It’s just anything fun. So it’s a surprise that so many people went to Hearthstone to see who would be the most productive user in this game and who could create the most productive decks.
And, throughout the years of all of that, we had not only people who were known for mechanically playing certain classes very well, you had people that are known for being the mad scientists of how to make decks that nobody expected or go against the meta and come up with a lineup that could surprise everybody but still do well. They all got a platform through esports and a lot of the big streamers these days, I would say the vast majority of them, had at some point a competitive career in Hearthstone. I think it’s because the nature of the game itself is quite technical. Everything is a card with numbers on it. There is math, there is odds you have to do, and there are strategies that are very learnable if you’re willing to put in the time. And the best way to learn a lot for a lot of people is to watch streams, watch other people who have more experience than you playing the game. And that all lends itself to the educational nature of watching these streams and watching tournaments.
And perhaps it also speaks to the general temperament of a Hearthstone player who may be willing to spend a little more time learning the technical facets of the game in order to improve. And that’s part of the laugh of watching your grades go up.
Georgiou: I think it’s very unlikely to say what Hearthstone’s long-term career would have looked like without Hearthstone’s esports and how the esports scene has grown so organically. I think a lot of the popularity of Hearthstone. . . A year or two was heavily influenced by this kind of local esports scene and the personalities that emerged from it, the communities it forged, and the gamers who have become enthusiasts of it. I think a lot of Hearthstone’s longevity is due to this guy. of accident satisfied.
I owe much of my experience, history, and personal background to that lightning in a bottle that occurred.
Shacknews: Last question for me. What advice would you give to somebody who’s playing or casting any game competitively and is considering making that transition to game development, having gone down that path yourselves?
Dee: Be humble more than anything.
When I showed up for the job, I liked, “Oh, I’m playing this game day and night. I eat, I sleep, I breathe Hearthstone. I know what a smart or funny card can be. “Absolutely not true! You may know what a strong map and a weak map can be, but I have no idea what a map is that is too complex, or a map that is too inaccessible, or a map that is great on paper but doesn’t have a simple way to translate it through the user interface. That’s all you need to know from scratch if you haven’t officially studied game design or tried it yourself.
So while a career in competitive gaming esports, whether it be as a competitor or as a caster, might help, you definitely need to, if you’re considering switching to game design, just keep an open mind. Treat yourself as a blank slate, absorb everything people that are telling you, and do not assume that you are more knowledgeable than anyone else.
Georgiou: I think similar to Jia’s point, a lot of us have made that transition from esports to design for Hearthstone specifically. But I think Hearthstone is not necessarily the rule.
At this point, esports and game design are very different. And, that being said, we have all adapted. We all appreciate the paintings we are making right now, but it is very different work. So I think it’s just a matter of being very fair to yourself about what you need from a career, what you like about esports and whether that’s reflected in the game design, because there are definitely some facets to pulling back the curtain. that they are not. All the better when you know how everything is done. Some things are a little less special, but some things are much more special, so there’s a little bit of give and take, but yeah, obviously, be fair to yourself about what you need and what you’re interested in. and whether the game design is appropriate.
The Hearthstone World Championship will take place this weekend, December 16-17. Hearthstone is a free-to-play game for PC and mobile devices and has just come out of Showdown in the Badlands. We also have a recent policy for the upcoming Hearthstone Battlegrounds Duos mode. , as well as some additional ideas from Dee and lead game designer Mitchell Loewen on designing Duos-exclusive heroes.
Ozzie has been playing video games since picking up his first NES controller at age 5. He has been into games ever since, only briefly stepping away during his college years. But he was pulled back in after spending years in QA circles for both THQ and Activision, mostly spending time helping to push forward the Guitar Hero series at its peak. Ozzie has become a big fan of platformers, puzzle games, shooters, and RPGs, just to name a few genres, but he’s also a huge sucker for anything with a good, compelling narrative behind it. Because what are video games if you can’t enjoy a good story with a fresh Cherry Coke?